Pablo Griswold UBI disincentivizes work. Who will go to work when you have everything provided? What happens when people choose to live their life entertaining themselves rather than working, resulting in higher rates of depression and feelings of worthlessness? People who aren’t productive can demonstrably be shown to be have more mental health issues. UBI will only encourage this more. Most people aren’t self motivated enough to overcome their own self destructive nature on their own. First of all, the opinion of the enemy.
APaleDot your exception doesn’t disprove the rule. Then again, is it really an exciton? You have some work/purpose you are striving for. What happens to the people who are striving to provide for their family? What happens when they have no useful skills because everything is provided? Many will wallow in the depression of feeling helpless. Capitalism may not be helping you, but it clearly isn’t stopping you. UBI has numerous hypothetical problems, none of which have been properly answered. The biggest one of all, though, is how to give people purpose in a world where you no longer have to work. Currently, capitalism gives that incentive.
Then my opinion: (at the time of writing as well as probably in the future)
In a more direct response. In advance, sry for any simplifcations & assumptions, its not worth going into more detail or making a bigger wall of text on youtube.
I have an issue with your use of work/purpose combined. If you understand them as the same thing well then it would make sense why you are attached to Capitalism.
Your work does not have to be your purpose, in fact that is objectively strictly limiting.
If machine A is more efficient in Job A than Person A, having Machine A doing job A serves society better.
If machine A replaces Person A in Job A & person A’s happiness is correlated with how much is produced in job A, they should be happier, since its more now.
If Person A has biases that make them want to be the one that “helps” society they could
1: Benefit society in the way of their choosing now that they have free time and a financial safety net or
2: use their new free time to improve themselves and heal their biases. It would not be healthy for them to desire convincing themselves that society is dependent on them by more than it is. Think them putting laws in place to keep better workers away.
If person A remains more efficient in their job (Job A) than any machine is, there is no incentive to replace person A. If anything there is more incentive for person A to improve due to increased competition, if automation brings that.
Q: What happens to the people striving to provide for their family? (in UBI)
A: Their family is provided for so starvation and homelessness is not a fear as it would be under capitalism. TLDR if what you care about is if they are provided for, UBI is safer and probably better.
Are you saying people should find meaning in having people dependent on them to the point where you would want to deny your own family a safety net that keeps them safe from homelessness and starvation just so YOU can “let” them have their needs?
If the goal is to make sure the family is provided for, UBI is safer. If the goal is so that YOU provide for them, well now they don’t need you for the basics, now you can use the free time and money you get from UBI to help their lives be even better, knowing they are safe.
You use lights and computers I assume, you didn’t invent them, but they improve your family’s quality of life, the beauty of global co-operation.
Q: What happens when they have no useful skills because everything is provided?
A: If the goal is to provide:
everything being provided sounds great. UBI wins.
–If the goal is to have skills: UBI frees society from jobs that can be done better by machines. So that people have the free time and financial safety required for self improvement. Therefore they should have more skills if developing those skills is their goal.
Capitalism uses the threat/real alternative of homelessness, discrimination & starvation to force people to develop skills required to do A JOB (not THE job the person is most suited for to help society or the job they want, but a job preferable to the alternative of poverty &or welfare). This often means the job they get to keep poverty at bay directly effects their personal development and hugely defines how their time is spent and the skills they develop which is hugely limiting, less so in ~best case scenarios but they are so rare.
Its practically strictly worse than UBI with the only exception of they potentially make more money which is only a benefit if one is materialistic (which they shouldn’t be since its unhealthy for oneself and imo its sick to flaunt ones comparative wealth when inequality exists). Capitalism incentivises materialism (Unhealthy and in a way sick due to inequality) and trends towards really top heavy power distribution, I read earlier this year that the worlds richest 1% hold more wealth/assets than the other 99% combined. UBI would solve both of those problems without creating a major one that people can prove so far afaik.
“What happens when they have no useful skills because everything is provided?”
1: Are you assuming one couldn’t or wouldn’t develop skills in the absence of a threat of poverty? everything being provided =/= no useful skills.
2: If a skills usefulness is directly correlated with how much it helps to provide, the skill of enabling machines to replace humans in jobs where it is in societies benefit is greater than the skill a person was using to work less efficiently than a machine would if it were enabled to do the job.
TLDR a vote for UBI/Automation > continuing to do the job when a machine can do it better.
3: Everything being provided strictly further enables them to develop skills. So if the usefulness of those skills is in the eye of the beholder, UBI again works much better than capitalism.
"Many will wallow in the depression of feeling helpless"
- Fail to earn money in capitalism and you’re in poverty, which can lead to homelessness as well as many many other things which cause depression and feelings of helplessness. In UBI you have the tools required to pursue an objective and if you want to help the world I believe most can do more with UBI.
“Capitalism may not be helping you, but it clearly isn’t stopping you.”
- I disagree and I find the sentence ridiculous, capitalism is hugely holding me back as an individual and I believe its hugely holding back society in comparison to how it would be with UBI.
"The biggest one of all, though, is how to give people purpose in a world where you no longer have to work. Currently, capitalism gives that incentive.“
-I would prefer to choose my purpose rather than be "given” one by someone. If I didn’t have to work I would be free to follow my own objectives, like say refining a system that incorporates UBI and automation to benefit the world and myself or programming an algorithm to try and play Starcraft as well as possible with an APM limited to the average of a human professional player.
The incentive capitalism gives is to serve someone for self preservation or further materialism, anything else capitalism achieves can be achieved with UBI.
~Any satisfaction one can get from capitalism that isn’t immoral one can get from UBI. - I want that quote to be a thing after we switch to UBI
Q: Who will go to work when you have everything provided?
A: Machines and people who want to. Practically everything can be automated.
Q: What happens when people choose to live their life entertaining themselves rather than working, resulting in higher rates of depression and feelings of worthlessness?
A: The question has too many assumptions so instead I will point out a flawed foundation, the assumptions that people will not use the freed up time to benefit society or follow their own objectives which prevents depression and feelings of worthlessness.
"Most people aren’t self motivated enough to overcome their own self destructive nature on their own.“
-That opinion was formed upon analysis of a society that is limited by capitalism, but you may still be right.
There are many solutions to this though and I think it would be the only major issue a UBI system would have, so many resources could be used on those solutions. It would also make society much more aware of something so important, its objectives.
Choosing Capitalism over UBI boils down to choosing to have less effective wealth total (resources/work done etc) AND choosing for it to be distributed so that the most wealthy get MUCH more than the rest since capitalism naturally trends towards that, despite it being in agreement morally that the greater good would be better and peoples needs should to prioritised over the capacity for mega-gluttony.